伯南克，请下课！
Show: Glenn Beck Program Host: Judge Andrew Napolitano
Channel: Fox News Date: 12/03/2009
http://www.ronpaul.com/2009-12-04/ron-paul-with-judge-napolitano-on-glenn-beck/
节目：格林•贝克节目 主持：法官安德鲁•纳波利塔诺
频道：Fox新闻 翻译：markgreene
法官纳波利塔诺：今天在国会山，本•伯南克，美联储主席，被一些参议院银行委员会成员触到了伤处，他们做的非常好。伯南克想谋求连任第二届美联储主席，但是共和党参议员金•邦宁用“道德风险”来称呼他，然后他这样做了：
金•邦宁：我来自于一个对过错进行惩罚，而不是奖励的世界。这是我过去打棒球时的规则，也是通行整个美国的规则。若依从现任财政部长所说的，有些人也许会认为华盛顿是在奖励过失行为，不过事情不应如此。我会竭尽所能来阻止你的提名并尽可能拖延程序的进行。你还有美联储所犯下的错误一定要就此结束，没有比现在更好的时机了。
法官纳波利塔诺：现在，独立党人和社会主义参议员，佛蒙特的伯尼•桑德斯，威胁暂不确认本•伯南克的题名。让我们来看看——保守党人和社会主义者至少在一件事情上达成了共识：伯南克走开。
现在和我连线的是美联储的敌人，德克萨斯的国会议员荣•保罗。国会议员，欢迎来到这个节目。
荣•保罗：谢谢你，法官。很高兴见到你。
法官纳波利塔诺：我也是。伯南克的任命会被确认码？我们还要再忍受他四年吗，或者他是要获得确认是不是只有一丝渺茫的希望了？
荣•保罗：我不这样想。我认为他的任命会得到确认。不过我不知道他是否会待上四年时间。我意思是我不确信当今的货币体系还能坚持那么久，谁知道四年之内它会变成什么样子。不过，他会得到连任。但是你知道，金•邦宁走上了前台，不确认他的题名。现在吉姆•德铭特（ Jim DeMint）也是，而且他还说直到参议院就S.604法案投票之前，他都不会确认。所以我认为那些都是好消息。
法官纳波利塔诺：你说到了S.604法案和H.R.1207法案，你使用的是国会里的命名术语，而你的方案快要成为法律了，我想，将会授权国会对美联储进行一行彻底开诚布公的审计。那样的事情会发生吗？
荣•保罗：你说“成为法律”。不，它很可能会通过众议院，那看上去挺不错。巴尼•弗兰克今天说他不会允许也预料不会有谁会修改委员会里通过的修正案。所以它会通过众议院。不过大的问题在于，吉姆•德铭特能使它顺利通过参议院吗，然后还希望它能挺过协商会议。但是美联储不会就这样安静的走开。幕后有太多的特殊利益了。我的意思是，他们已经雇佣了说客，他们会刊登广告和使用其他所有手段。你知道特殊利益集团很强大，而且我肯定他们对政府有很大的影响力。总统还没有就此事发表过意见，不过相信我，他背后的人不会支持审计美联储。
法官纳波利塔诺：国会议员保罗，我想你继续和我们在一起，十分感谢。接下来是今天的经济议题。有请蒂姆•卡尼（Tim Carney），他是“奥巴马式经济学”一书的作者，还有约翰•塔姆尼（John Tamney），他是RealClearMarkets.com的编辑。蒂姆，首先是你。我要读一下你这本书的全名，因为它是一个难以让人相信的题目：“奥巴马式经济学——贝拉克•奥巴马如何让你破产以及让他的华尔街朋友们，大企业说客，以及工会老板们发财”。他怎么做到的？
蒂姆•卡尼：呃，本•伯南克是一个很好的例子。他是一个救市大王。他是布什手下的救市大王，事实也已经证明了。奥巴马式经济学是布什经济学里最坏的部分，造就了大政府，让渗透进政府的大企业提供公共服务，损害的是普通百姓的利益。我还要说，保罗博士，非常感谢您为我的这本书《奥巴马式经济学》写序言。
法官纳波利塔诺：保罗博士的序言写的非常好，就像我们中的一些已经知道的。我们会过一会谈那个。当我首先听到这个书名的时候我想一定是疯了。约翰•塔姆尼，政府能够凭空造钱。普通美国人的利益是如何受到伤害的，当美联储想把钱给他的亲信，不是给他们一张支票，而只是把他们在美联储开的账户上的数字后面加上好几零，然后说，“继续干吧，把这些钱当真钱花出去好了。”
约翰•塔姆尼：这对普通美国人造成了伤害，因为我们口袋里的钱被贬值了，结果我们变得更穷了。如果你想知道为什么近十年的油价居高不下，这就和美元的贬值有关系。所以回到一个稳定的货币体系是非常必要的，而联邦储备系统不是必要的。如果我们那样做，把美元以黄金来衡量，我们就等于彻底剥夺了美联储的权力，而且突然之间我们有了真正的货币，我们可以在今天，明天，以及二十年之后依然可以信赖的货币。
法官纳波利塔诺：国会议员保罗，为什么所谓的富有同情心的，声称信仰自由市场的保守主义者，就像乔治•W•布什那样的，和一个极左分子像贝拉克•奥巴马那样的，都想让这个同样的人管理美联储呢？
荣•保罗：那告诉了你货币利益集团有多么强大。他们影响了两党，他们在很多方面都有影响力。你知道，在共和党执政下，国内的福利政策并没有改变许多，不管是共和党还是民主党上台，对外政策也没有多少改变；它们总是同样的。而且货币政策一贯如此。但问题是大政府。我们不能拥有一个大政府，我们本不会有一个大政府，假如我们必须向老百姓征收我们所需数目的税金的话。所以这是最最邪恶的向老百姓征税的方法，而且事情事实上是联系在一起的，因为真正的工资水平在下降。所以工会要求更高的工资，而且他们通过那种方式提高工资。但是真正的问题是货币贬值了。这是最邪恶，最不道德，最糟糕的经济行为，我们必须追根问底，也就是问题的根源，也就是为什么要让百姓关注美联储和找出他们究竟在做什么的原因。幸运的是这些听证会对我们有利，因为许多美国人在过去的几年里已经关注起美联储来了，随着这些听证会，关注的人越来越多。
法官纳波利塔诺：蒂姆•卡尼，你认为大部分美国人能够理解美联储凭空造钱，贷出的是虚假的钱，然而当那些人或企业把贷款还给美联储，他们还回去的是真正的钞票？所以说这些人通过把不存在的钞票贷款出去来挣钱，而得到的是货真价实的美元。美国人理解其中的道理吗？
蒂姆•卡尼：他们不理解，而且我认为他们会真的愤怒起来如果他们明白了其中的道理，就是当银行得到钱，这些虚假的钱，来自美联储的，而通货膨胀还没有对经济造成影响。所以对银行来说这些钱和通货膨胀之前一样值钱。而等到这些钱渗透到了普通百姓手里，它们就不值那么多了。这是典型的。奥巴马当然没有发明这个伎俩，不过它符合他政策里的经济政策，那就是更大的政府，伤害普遍消费者和纳税人的事情；壮大银行和那些圈内人。
法官纳波利塔诺：你知道，约翰•塔姆尼，奥巴马总统有许多不富裕的人的支持，有许多小人物投票给他，希望他能入主白宫。很多辛勤工作的蓝领，很多单亲家庭和很多工会成员。他们难道不明白他正在通过让他的朋友们，银行家们发财来摧毁他们手中美元的购买力吗？
约翰：塔姆尼：我认为最终他们会明白，而且我认为你会在2012年的选举里看到。每个经济学家都知道让选民不满的最迅速的方法就是让他们挣来的货币贬值。而且我想当他的选民们看到油价时，看到食品价格时，他们就会明白。当权派会称此为商品短缺，而事实上正是弱势美元在驱使所有物价的上涨，而且这会对他们造成伤害。
法官纳波利塔诺：国会议员保罗，你对所有这些事情都有一个解决方案，那就是三个单词，而且是你最近一本畅销书的名字。那会成为现实吗？
荣•保罗：让我想想我是不是还记得，我想它应该是和“End the Fed”（推翻美联储）有关系。
法官纳波利塔诺：又是这一套。是不是有这样一个非常渺茫的可能性，美国公众会起来夺回被美联储从他们手中偷走的自由市场吗？
荣•保罗：可能性总是存在的，如果人民愿意的话。它不会来自于首府华盛顿。在审计美联储的背后是人民的支持，是人民在对国会议员施加压力，让他们加入我们的队伍。人民必须要变得警觉，警醒，而且要行动起来。而且他们是这样的。稳健的货币总是很受欢迎。如果会对此进行一场投票，国会议员和其他人必须要支持它因为凭空造出货币，无尽的印纸币，然后强迫我们去接受的想法太愚蠢了。一旦我们有了显著的物价上涨，我们会被迫，最终，再一次谈起稳健的货币来。
法官纳波利塔诺：蒂姆•卡尼，约翰•塔姆尼，国会议员荣•保罗，谢谢你们参加我们的节目。
相关阅读： 2009年年度人物，伯南克根本不配！
【译者markgreene注】 金·邦宁（Jim Bunning），前著名棒球运动员，共和党人，现任美国参议员，参议院银行委员会成员。邦宁以反对美联储著称，被认为是美联储在参议院最大的敌人。在这篇措辞犀利的演讲里，他无情的揭下了美联储的面具。
邦宁已宣布不再连任肯塔基参议员，这无形中为保罗之子——兰德·保罗（Rand Paul）的参议员竞选减少了许多阻碍，让人十分期待2010年的肯塔基州参议员竞选
Transcript
Judge Napolitano: Today on Capitol Hill Ben Bernanke, the chairman of the Fed, was reamed and rightly so by some members of the Senate Banking Committee. Bernanke wants that second term as head of the Federal Reserve, but Republican Senator Jim Bunning called him “a moral hazard” and then he did this:
Jim Bunning: Where I come from, we punish failure, not reward it. That is certainly the way it was when I played baseball. And it is the way across all America presently. Judging by the current treasure secretary, some may think Washington does reward failure, but that should not be the case. I will do everything I can to stop your nomination and drag out this process as long as I can.
Judge Napolitano: Now, independent and socialist senator, Bernie Sanders of Vermont, has threatened to put a hold on Ben Bernanke’s nomination. Let’s see – a conservative and a socialist agree on at least one thing: no more Bernanke.
With me now is no fan of the Fed, Congressman Ron Paul of Texas. Congressman, welcome to the program.
Ron Paul: Thank you, Judge. Good to be with you.
Judge Napolitano: Likewise. Is Ben Bernanke going to be reconfirmed? Are we going to have 4 more years of this, or is there just the slimmest chance that he might be at the end of the box?
Ron Paul: I don’t think so. I think he will be reconfirmed. But I don’t know whether he will last 4 years. I mean I’m not sure the monetary system will hold together for much longer, so who knows what it will be like in 4 years. But no, he’s going to get renominated. But you know, Jim Bunning went ahead and put a hold on his nomination as well. Now also Jim DeMint put a hold on it, and he said he’s not going to remove that hold until they have a vote on S 604, which is the same thing as HR 1207. So the momentum is picking up for the audit in the Senate right now. So I think that’s all good news.
Judge Napolitano: When you say S 604 and HR 1207, you’re using the congressional nomenclature for your proposal which is close to becoming law, I think, which will authorize the Congress to conduct a full open transparent audit of the Fed. Is that going to happen?
Ron Paul: Well, you said “become law”. No, it’s likely to pass the House, that looks pretty good. Barney Frank said today he will not allow and he doesn’t expect anybody to tinker with the amendment that got passed in the committee. So it’s going to pass the House. But the big question is, can Jim DeMint get it passed over in the Senate, and then hopefully it stays in after a conference. But the Fed is not going to go away quietly. There is a lot of special interest behind this. I mean, they have hired lobbyist, they’re doing movie ads and everything else. But you know the special interests are very powerful and I am sure they have a lot of influence with the administration. The president hasn’t spoken out on this but believe me, the people behind him are not in favor of auditing the Fed.
Judge Napolitano: Congressman Paul, I want you to stay with us please. We’re going to bring in today’s economic panel. Here is Tim Carney, he’s the author of “Obamanomics”. And John Tamney is here, he’s the editor of RealClearMarkets.com. Tim, first to you. I got to read the full name of your book, because it’s just an unbelievable title: “Obamanomics – how Barack Obama is bankrupting you and enriching his Wall Street friends, corporate lobbyists, and union bosses”. How is he doing it?
Tim Carney: Well, Ben Bernanke is a great example of that. He is a bailout baron. He was Bush’s bailout baron and it shows. Obamanomics is about the worst parts of Bushonomics, which is taking big government and putting it at the service of the entrenched big businesses in a way that hurts regular people. And I got to say, Dr. Paul, thank you very much for writing the foreword on Obamanomics.
Judge Napolitano: Dr. Paul writes very good forewords, as some of us know. We’ll get to that in a minute. When I first heard this I thought it was insane, John Tamney, that the government could create money out of thin air. How does that hurt the average American when the Federal Reserve wants to give money to one of its favorites instead of sending a check, just adds the zeros to their accounts at the Fed and says, “just go ahead and spend it as if it were real money.”
John Tamny: It hurts the average American because when the money in our pocket is devalued, we are poorer as a result. If you want to know why oil prices were high this decade, it has to do with the devalued dollar. And so it’s essential to get back to a stable currency regime which would not require a Federal Reserve. If we did that and define the dollar in terms of gold, we would totally disempower the Fed and we would suddenly have money that is real that we can count on it today, tomorrow and 20 years from now.
Judge Napolitano: Congressman Paul, how is it that a so-called compassionate conservative who professed to believe in the free market, like George W. Bush, and an avowed leftist like Barack Obama, can both want the same human being to run the Fed?
Ron Paul: Well, that tells you how powerful the moneyed interests are. They influence both parties, but they influence a lot. You know, domestic welfare policy didn’t change a whole lot with the Republicans, foreign policy doesn’t change with the Republicans or Democrats; they always remain the same. And monetary policy stays the same. But big government is the issue. We can’t have big government, we wouldn’t have it if we had to tax the people for the amount of money we need. So this is a sinister way to tax the people, and this actually compounds itself because the real wages go down. So the unions demand more wages and they push wages up that way. But it’s the depreciation of money that is the real issue. It’s a sinister evil immoral bad economic act, and we have to get to the bottom of it and that’s why the beginning of it is to get people’s attention to look at the Fed and also find out exactly what they’re doing. And fortunately these hearings are serving a benefit for us because a lot more Americans in the last couple of years have been paying attention to the Fed and with these hearings even more so.
Judge Napolitano: Tim Carney, do you think that most Americans even understand that the Fed creates money out of thin air, and it’s fine money, but yet when people pay the Fed or when entities pay the Fed back, they pay it back with real money? So these people make money by loaning phony money, but getting paid back in real dollars. Do Americans understand that?
Tim Carney: They don’t understand that and I think they’d be really angry if they understood the way that when the banks get the money, the phony money, from the Fed, the effect of inflation hasn’t hit the economy yet. So to the banks the money is worth just as much as it was before it got inflated. By the time it trickles down to regular people it’s not worth as much. And this is sort of typical. Obama certainly didn’t invent this, but it fits in with his economic policy of policies that are bigger government, things that hurt regular consumers and taxpayers; propping up the banks and those who are well connected.
Judge Napolitano: You know, John Tamny, president Obama has a lot of non-wealthy people, a lot of little people that voted for him and want him to be in the White House. A lot of hardworking blue collar people, a lot of single parent families and a lot of union members. Don’t they understand that he is destroying the purchasing power of their dollar by enriching his friends, the bankers?
John Tamny: I think ultimately they do and I think you’re going to see it in the elections in 2012. The quickest way every economist has known in history to make the electorate unhappy is to devalue the money they earn. And I think his voters will know as they see it in gasoline prices, they’re going to see it in food prices. They’ll call these shortages, but in fact it’s just a weak dollar driving up the price of everything and so this is going to hurt them.
Judge Napolitano: Congressman Paul, you have a solution for all of this. It’s three words, and it’s the title of your latest bestseller. Will it ever happen?
Ron Paul: Let me see if I remember that, I think it has to do with “End the Fed”.
Judge Napolitano: There you go. Is there the remotest chance that the American public will rise up and take back the free market that has been stolen from them by the Federal Reserve?
Ron Paul: There is always a chance if the people do their work. It will not originate out of Washington. It’s the people who got behind auditing the Fed and put the pressure on the congressmen to join us in that effort. So the people have to become alert and awake and become active. And they are. So, sound money is always very popular. If there is ever a vote for it, members of Congress and others have to endorse it because the idea of money coming out of thin air, printing pieces of paper, it is so silly that we will be forced to [accept it]. And once we have the significant price inflation with us we will be forced, eventually, to talk about sound money once again.
Judge Napolitano: Tim Carney, John Tamny, congressman Ron Paul, thanks for joining us.
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